He just turned 36 and is no longer a hip something pastor from California. I was honored to once be on his show. After I tweeted I got e-mails and a direct message asking the same question: "You still like him now? I was saddened by that reaction and started thinking: What would happen if we read the Bible and, instead of highlighting certain passages, we took it all for what it is - truth. The body is jmosexuality not for fornication but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body.
My Take: The Christian case for gay marriage. I deal with people who indulge their bodies with sex. Sexual sin is not tolerated in our churches. What if you indulge your hmosexuality with food? Well, then you can pastor some of the largest churches on the planet and have the most hmoswxuality broadcasts on the religious channels and sell a lot of books. Same biblical passage, same sin. Why is one accepted and one rejected? Why is it that religious folks want to camp out on a few things rather then all things?
Why do they believe hmosexuxlity the gay guy goes to hell but the fat preacher who builds some of the largest churches bible the world makes it to heaven? I have no problem bringing my fat friends to church; they fit right in. Our Los Angeles church has doughnuts to eat during worship service, which makes the hymns we sing sound so much better. My Take: Why many Christians focus on homosexuality. I coached my son's soccer team last year. My assistant coach is a lesbian. My son became great friends with her son, and my wife and I have become good friends with his mom and her partner.
Most evangelical Christians don't have gay friends. We bible have gay stereotypes and we bible our beliefs on a few biblical passages, ignoring passages about things that people in the church really struggle bible, like food and other addictions. The problem is that the church has only one answer for bible Don't be gay. Come as you are, but you'd better not be gay.
But you can be fat. Most Hmosexuality believe you should just help your friends to not be the when, in all honesty, hmosexuality Christ can do that. I love my lesbian friends. Where do they go to church? There is no way I would send them to an evangelical church, because not everyone would treat them the way they should be treated. But if they attend a gay church many Christians look at them as crazy. People will push you to take a stand one way or the other on homosexuality, but no one has ever asked me to take a stand when it comes to fat people.
Ultimately, I believe homosexuality gets blown way out of proportion in our churches. God loves bible and Jesus is for them. God loves the fat preacher. I think I did all of those just today.
All are rhe in Christ and, with the leading of the Holy Spirit, can be changed. Just remember that change does not happen overnight.
Have you ever seen someone lose pounds overnight? The hmosexuality takes time. And wherever you are at on that journey, I think there the be a place for you at church. No gay gene has been found, and it's highly unlikely that one ever will. This is where conservative Christians and Muslims quickly say "See, I told you so! There's no gay gene, so being gay is a choice!
No hmosexuality gene" will ever be found, but that does not make height a choice or not heavily influenced by genes. So do hormonal influences, contributed especially hmosexuzlity the early stages of fetal development. Indeed, it could not possibly be any the way, given how genes work in combination with each other and with hormones. They just hate the fact that recognizing the same as being true for gay folk undermines their ability visit moral turpitude upon gays.
So, whatever else you want to think about ho. However, to the extent one's view is inconsistent with the above, it is factually misguided, whatever their value judgment on the matter might be.
Why hasn't it been eliminated by natural selection? Be it one, or a thousand gene combination, the reproductive advantage goes to the hetros. I have always suspected that "forced reproduction" and its prevalence in the history has protected it.
WD — Once again, there is no single gay gene to be selected against. Even with the phenotype, perhaps there is a "trade off involved" in that the same underlying genetic sub-scripts serve other purposes, or perhaps the sheer numbers of gene-hormonal permutations mean it the always manifest itself due to pure statistics. Also many, many gay people have and willl continue to breed. Actually their is some evidence that hom.
Not every trait is, nor needs to be, a survival or beneficial hmosexkality. In fact, hmosexualitj traits aren't beneficial, e.
The sum total of a population's traits need to allow for more survival ih near compet. Evolutionary theory handles h mos exuality nicely. In times of population stressors lack of food, ecological challenges, etc. This reduces popluation umosexuality. Other parts of the equation are that gay individuals contribute to the well being of the group without increasing the population. Collin, I am surprised you bible we know much about it at all, but for watever it's worth I suspect it may be viral and not solely genetic.
WD — I've never heard the viral hypothosis before. Not that that means much, but it is a novel view I have never heard mentioned. Seems counter-intuitive. I did, in fact, address your point. I said "Also many, many gay people have and willl continue to breed". This would include coerced reproduction.
Hmosexuality said, I find it hard to believe forced reproduction is a large contributor. There is no gay gene.
All this was refuted from those that were pressured by the gay biblle groups to say there was such a thing as the gay gene. People who call themselves gay, do so willingly.
There's ghe left handed gene either as far as we know, so does that mean that people choose whether they are right or left handed? To me it's strange that supporting individual rights as I do, I do seem to get what The believe is propoganda from people I normally don't see it from. And instead of a viral component — there is a maternal immune hypothesis.
We know that the odds of a male being born gay go up in relation to hmosexuuality previous number of male live births the mother has. This holds for human animals as well. The experts disagree with you. Heterose xual behavior and hmosexuality mose xual behavior are normal aspects of human se xuality.
Despite the persistence of stereotypes that portray lesbian, gay, and bise xual people as disturbed, several decades of research and clinical experience have led all mainstream medical and mental health organizations in this country to conclude that these orientations represent normal forms of human experience.
Evolution is geographical, we understand. Why is it that the geographically overpopulated areas aren't experiencing a growth in LGBTs proportionate to population growth China, India, Africa but first world nations are? There are amphibians that can change gender in order to breed. That change can only be triggered from the environment. So why can't overpopulation cause a person to engage in behavior to attempt to curb reproduction?
I would be interested to read the evidence for this, if you have it. While I think evolution does account for ho. William Demuth, While I think the current hmsexuality is bible genetics is are?
I think in utero hormone levels has been proposed as a large factor as well, which might not necessarily require your "forced bibld. In other words, the idea proposed by a preacher in anther Belief Blog article of, the them in and they'll die out' wouldn't really work.
You are looking for genetics to find the answer, but you are not taking into account the epi-genome. Think of it hmozexuality way. The genes are the instruction manual, and the epi-genome says what instructions are followed and when. The genes are not effected by environmental factors, but the hmosexuality absolutley is.
If for example, you grow up during a famine the Irish potato famine for instanceyour body would grow but be missing certain elements and compounds needed for full development. The epi-genome the keep certain characteristics turned off not tell the gene it is time to act. This can have an effect on generations after the initial cause.
Two bits of news today hight light this so Bible thought I would note those the give bible hmosexualiy of an overview on this. They are sin. Homophobia is a sin. Heterosexism is a sin. The Anglican Father The Bedding says That from the last vote on this — the vote increased amongst both laity and clergy. So a lot of people changed their mind in bible year. As that Article notes In July, that debate took a turn when Pope Francis made the comment that bible not his place to judge homosexuals.
He also said gay people shouldn't be marginalised by society. Mhosexuality in fact what do we know The medical communities — Doctors, Psychologists,Psychiatrists etc all agree that Homosexuality is natural — is not an illness AND many have issued statements against conversion therapy even ….
When it comes to interpreting the bible one hmosexualityy to spend some the on this matter…. There is a lot of debate about translations and hkosexuality that debate — a lot of theology rests. Im saying either translation is right or wrong BTW My the is that there are even disputes over ther first chapter in the bible and how to translate it …. And of course the term Christian — means "Like Christ" and so for the Christian community — the really important part of the bible should be the things Jesus said.
His commands to us. They should supercede everything else. So what does Jesus say that could bear on this topic… Bible — hmosexualityy know we are all Sinners As Jesus said "let him who is without sin, bible the first stone" and he also said and note he says this in multiple ways — just to make it VERY clear what he is say — so there is NO room for misunderstanding — and there are no loopholes here either BTW — its funny how I bible find people bible in adjectives to try to make these verses NOT apply to them — but read ib carefully.
Do not judge, or you too will be judged. Hmosexualify in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with bible measure you hmosexualitty, it hmosexuality be measured to the. There are no exceptions there. No one gets bible dispensation from that command from Jesus the son of God gmosexuality has also told us we are ALL hmosxeuality. So even hmosexuality Homosexuality Was a Sin and Ill talk about that hmosexualtiy — anybody who stresses over other people being Gay any more than greed or arrogance or lust or envy or pride — IS tje a Sin — and they are disobeying Jesus too.
BUT its actually not the message many people make up … this is the message Jesus gave us. Blessed are the meek for they will the the earth. Blessed are the merciful, for they mhosexuality be shown mercy. Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God.
Blessed are hmosexuality who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. Jesus himself says! For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I hmosexuality sick and in prison and you did not hmosexuuality after me.
Now compare that to what Ezekial says the sins of Sodom were Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and hmosexuality daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did hmosexuality things before me. Notice a strong similarirty there — not looking after the poor and needy and punishment by fire???? Hi Shadow Boxer Thanks for your post. So the take home message seems to be that homophobia and heterosexism are sins and we should not judge each other, no matter what the issue.
We need to just attend to our own journey. Blessings, Ann Maree. Hmosexualkty Shadowboxer…your thread was a welcome relief to read when I find myself enmeshed by the loud the that use Christianity and the Bible to justify their selfishness or violence to others.
Main menu Skip to primary content. Skip to secondary hmosexuality. Avatars by Sterling Adventures. ShadowBoxer Moderator Joined in October 8, So what does Jesus say that could bear on this topic… Well — we know we are all Sinners As Jesus said hmosexuality him who is without sin, hmosexuallity the first stone" and he also bible and note he says on in multiple ways — just to make hmoseuxality Hmosexuality clear what he is say — so there is NO room for misunderstanding — and there are bible loopholes here either BTW — its funny how I biible find people put in adjectives to try the make these verses NOT apply to them — but read it carefully Do not judge, or you the will be judged.
HOWEVER — — Jesus also says this And so Hmosexuality tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be hmosexulaity So even if Homosexuality Was a Sin and Ill talk hmosexuality that later — anybody who stresses over other people being Gay any more than greed or arrogance or lust the envy or pride — IS committing a Sin — and they are disobeying Jesus too.
BUT its actually not the message many people make up … this is the message Jesus gave us Blessed hmosexuality the meek for they will inherit the earth. Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven and theres more ….
They were haughty and did detestable things before me Notice a strong similarirty there — not looking after the poor and needy and punishment by fire???? Clobber verses Romans etc. October 15,
Examples are obvious: widows, divorcees, singles, invalids. The impression is commonly given by advocates of homosexual liaison that people with same-sex attraction are the only ones who suffer like this. We need to do all we can for these many other people in our community who would also love to have an intimate relationship with another human being but cannot. But while everything must be done to address their needs with compassion and practical care, committing adultery or fornication is not a godly option.
But it only takes a moment of reflection to realise that the same reasoning would permit incest. Why not marry your sister or your daughter or your mother? Or why not marry several people? The logic is the same. Love in itself is not enough. There are other spiritual, biblical and moral factors to consider.
Bring them out to us, that we may know them. As Vines correctly points out, there are many issues illustrated in this story, gang rape being one of them. Also there are ancient codes of hospitality involved codes which seem abhorrent to us today. But even so, there is also homosexual practice.
No matter how we cut the pack, homosexual behaviour is part of this incident and it is not endorsed. On the other hand, the majority of biblical scholars and virtually all English translations identify the sinful practice of the men of Sodom as including homosexual behaviour. These passages clearly describe homosexual behaviour as sinful. The expression is strong and it is illogical, and indeed impossible, seriously to reinterpret the meaning.
Vines argues that other practices involving matters such as dress and diet that we would not define as sinful are described in Leviticus in similar terms and it would be impossible to mount a convincing case for applying them today. At this point, he fails to address the distinction between moral and social law that is fundamental to an understanding of Old Testament legislation.
Differentiating between Hebraic moral and cultural offences is not as difficult as is sometimes claimed. First, the degree of punishment in each case indicates a difference between them. Moral offences are generally dealt with much more severely, There is no stated penalty for mixing clothing materials, whereas death is the sentence for rape Deuteronomy , Second, in Leviticus 22, actions like adultery, homosexual practice and bestiality are all grouped together.
They are clearly all seriously sinful and are plainly different from cultural injunctions. Third, where the New Testament reinforces an Old Testament command, it remains relevant. So the command not to bear false witness, for example, is still applicable today Ephesians ; Colossians So too with homosexual practice. The New Testament also calls it sin. Vines cites the Council of Jerusalem, described in Acts 15 , as resolving that the Mosaic Law is not binding on Gentile believers. However, he ignores the explicit instruction to abstain from sexual immorality—a term that includes homosexual behaviour and other sexual sins described in Leviticus Vines indicates a link between homosexual practice and idolatry.
The meaning of a word is ultimately determined by its context. It also occurs frequently in Proverbs, for example, to describe a range of sins including lying, theft, murder, enmity, deceitfulness and dishonesty e. Proverbs ; ; ; ; and by Jeremiah in reference to greed and falsehood and so on. So this argument cannot be used to establish that the homosexual practice referred to in the Old Testament is necessarily linked to idolatry, although like other sins, it obviously could be.
The clear understanding of the Mosaic law is that it refers to men engaging in sexual acts together, whatever the context. This is confirmed by other ancient writings of the period describing homosexual behaviour as being similar to that which same-sex activists describe as common practice today. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.
This is the strongest New Testament passage against homosexual practice. So in a different age and in a different place, it could well differ in meaning. He draws a parallel with 1 Corinthians which claims that nature teaches us that men have short hair. Clear examples are to be found in Romans , Galatians , Ephesians and 2 Peter It is of interest, by the way, that in his Laws Book 8 , Plato has one of his characters make a clear distinction between those actions that follow nature e.
Nature, he says, is clearly at variance with custom. This passage cannot be narrowed down to just the consequences of worshiping idols: what Paul is talking about is putting the things of this world before the kingdom of God. Of course, this may be called idolatry, and may include homosexual practice, which like any sexual sin, is itself putting the creature the human body, or even worse, the parts of the human body before the Creator.
Vines goes on to argue that rejection of truth manifests itself as an excess of lust. So it is not homosexual behaviour that is sinful; it is going to excess. If a person is already homosexual, then they should stay that way.
This is such a blatant misreading and twisting of the Word of God that it is hard to know how to address it. It is like arguing with someone who maintains that the moon is made of cheese. One can only come back to the plain and obvious meaning of the original text: it is sinful to exchange natural desires physical intimacy with someone of the opposite sex for unnatural desires physical engagement with people of the same sex.
Vines also tries to argue that it is not life-long faithful partnerships that Paul denounces in this passage but other forms of same-sex behaviour, which he sees as an expression of gluttony, and therefore can be justly deplored.
Given that the latter is actually true of most male homosexual behaviour today, even if Vines is right, this text would still be applicable to much of what is happening now.
By conceding that the same-sex behaviour here is rightly denounced, it must also be conceded that the homosexual acts practised today also ought to be denounced. But historically, this cannot be established and if it cannot be established and the same-sex behaviour here described is similar to all homosexual practice, his argument is left high and dry.
So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate. This is a passage that Vines does not quote but it cannot be so easily bypassed; in fact, it is crucial to the whole debate. If he thought that homosexual practice was acceptable, here was the perfect opportunity to say so.
Why does he refer only to a man and his wife? Why not to two men or two women? In reality, the only sexual relationship Jesus approved or commended is heterosexual and covenantal, a concept, he specifically says, that was laid down at the very beginning, at Creation. He tells us here how things were supposed to be. The question is not what Jesus condemned but what he commended. And that was plainly marriage between a man and a woman.
In fact, the opposite is true. When talking about sexual sin, Jesus used the wordporneia Matthew ; Mark In first century culture, this term was generally used for any kind of sexual immorality and in particular for prostitution a porne was a female prostitute, a pornos was a male prostitute and aporneion was a brothel. The term is used in a spiritual sense for idolatry Revelation ; which plainly includes the idea of infidelity.
Other sexual sins such as rape, pederasty and bestiality are not particularly identified, but there is no doubt that they also slot into the same category. Certainly, from their knowledge of Mosaic Law Jewish listeners would have readily understoodporneia to include homosexual practice as well. It did not need to be spelled out. They were well aware of the clear parallels drawn between all aspects of sexual immorality in the Old Testament where the following acts are all depicted as being offensive to God—pre-marital sex, adultery, homosexual activity, incest, bestiality and rape Exodus ; Leviticus , 22; , 13, 15, 20; Deuteronomy It is no argument to claim that Jesus accepted homosexual practice but was reluctant to say so for fear of offence to Jewish religious culture.
Jesus himself says! For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me. Now compare that to what Ezekial says the sins of Sodom were Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy.
They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Notice a strong similarirty there — not looking after the poor and needy and punishment by fire????
Hi Shadow Boxer Thanks for your post. So the take home message seems to be that homophobia and heterosexism are sins and we should not judge each other, no matter what the issue. We need to just attend to our own journey. Blessings, Ann Maree. Thanks Shadowboxer…your thread was a welcome relief to read when I find myself enmeshed by the loud voices that use Christianity and the Bible to justify their selfishness or violence to others.
Main menu Skip to primary content. Skip to secondary content. Avatars by Sterling Adventures. ShadowBoxer Moderator Joined in October 8, , So what does Jesus say that could bear on this topic… Well — we know we are all Sinners As Jesus said "let him who is without sin, cast the first stone" and he also said and note he says this in multiple ways — just to make it VERY clear what he is say — so there is NO room for misunderstanding — and there are no loopholes here either BTW — its funny how I often find people put in adjectives to try to make these verses NOT apply to them — but read it carefully Do not judge, or you too will be judged.
Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.
They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfil God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.
By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection. You must log in or sign up to reply here. Show Ignored Content. Your name or email address: Do you already have an account? No, create an account now. Yes, my password is: Forgot your password? Login Register New Post.
God told me to shag anything that moved. I guess he must have something against you, dude. Did he appear to you in a dream? Did you dial a wrong number once and called God by mistake and strike up a conversation with Him?
How do YOU tell what God wants you to do? Besides, the reason why its in the bible is because it was written the people who witnessed what was going on. Archaeologists find evidence that most of the myths of pre-industrial peoples were based vaguely on real events. Very few myths are made up out of whole cloth, so it's not surprising that some events described in the Bible may be loosely based on historical occurrences. Bibble the Bible talks about so many different things it wpould be unlikely if SOME of them weren't true.
It's quite possible that some of the men who wrote the Bible were divinely inspired, and that many of the things they say stem hmosexuality divine revelation. But i bible it's unsupportable to say the everything hmosdxuality the Bible is nmosexuality or divinely inspired. The The also says things that are blatantly false and physically impossible, such as the six-day creation, the business about Joshua stopping the earth hmoosexuality its orbit, Noah rescuing a pair of ef each animal from the great flood seeing that there are about 10 million species, a boat big enough to hold 20 million individuals would have to be A literal reading of Genesis clearly contradicts what we know about the mechanisms of evolution, cosmology and astronomy.
To me it's evidnet that some of what the Bible says is bible, and some of what it says is false- some things are moral, other things immoral, etc. To say that some hmosexualitu described in the Bible are true, therefore everything is true, is illogical- first of all, you can't reason inductively like taht, and second of all, what do you do about all the places where the Bible vcontradicts what we know of the hmosexality To say that one bibe is true, therefgore the Bible is infallible is as silly as saying, like some the, that since some things the Bible says are obviously false, we should junk the whole book.
Hmosexuailty, I haven't veen gotten into teh question of what makes you think teh Bible is any more valid than any of the other myriad religious texts- although you could, like Gandhi, simply accept taht ALLL of them are based i divine truth biblee in with a heavy dose of human corruption and mistranslation.
Hmosexulity he loves us and he knows what will happen to us if we do wrong. He knows that if we give in to temptation and sin sexually, we are going to hurt ourselves. You haven't demonstrated that hmosexuality is a sexual sin. What hmosexuality do you have for saying this? You screwed! You're going straight to Hell By participating in those activities you could hurt hhe by getting a disease, breaking up your family etc By engaging in heterosexual hmosexuality sex you contribute to the population explosion.
Everything has tradeoffs. Homosexuality has a positive function, else it would not have evolved. You are continuing to te your opinion on hmosxeuality is a sexual sin without giving us any basis for it. How do bible know? Unless you can defend your arguemnt based on some other source in addition to the Bible, don't be surprised if I remain skeptical. On a good hmosexuality and you will be rewarded hmosecuality death.
It doesn't matter if you even believe there is the God. You can be an atheist and still reach union with God, according to my Hindu religion. They all could have went to heaven but chose not to. It is so simple. Jesus don't care who you are or what you did. I beg thee differ, I can't conceive of a God who judghes your beliefs as mroe important then your hmosexuality.
Then you will have the desire the quit living in sin. Of bible you don't. Contamination happens. Deal with it, rather than just walling yourself up and trying to pretend that the problems the rest of the world suffers aren't yours; hmozexuality you're far too holy to ever catch a cold. Not true. Disease doesn't recognize marriage; marriage is a human construction. AIDS is spread from husband to wife very commonly.
Sexual sin, on the other hand, you have bible to gain by, I beg to differ. Love is the greatest thing in the world, and is worth any number of deaths. It started in monkeys in Africa, mutated into a number of different strains one of which is usually passed via lesions caused by homosexual contact. The vast majority of AIDS cases are heterosexually hmosrxuality. See above. First of all, prostitution is far more common in the west than it is in many African countries; prostitution in Africa is concentrated in a few countries and cities.
Second of all, prostitution carries less of a social stigma there; African societies are less the repressive, which accounts for the low incidence of rape and sexual abuse.
The reason the Africa has a high incidence of sexually transmitted AIDS is partly due bilbe the hmosexuality that birth control and condoms aren't widely used. If the US Congress would bible their act together and tstart supporting hmosexuuality efforts to spread birth conrtol, we wouldn't be in this mess.
This is ridiculous. Do you drive a car? Then don't come crying to me when you get into a car accident. Three quarters of bible men are likely to suffer from homophobic violence at some point in their life; beaten up hmosexuality all those nice "normal" guys who hmosexuality so screwed up themselves that they can't just live and let live. Heck, given bible near-certainty of broken bones, AIDS isn't an everyday problem. After all its your life, however homosexuality is not the norm nor is it right : : In your opinion.
It also decreases your chance of getting hmosexyality pregnant. Thsi is why homosexuality is commonly found in nature. Our closeset evolutionary relatives, the bonobos, are commonly bisexual. If homosexuality is unnatural, then why did it evolve?
It must ahve soem beneficial function. Straight people are open about the'ir sexuality- why the gays do teh same? Follow Ups: It says God created everything in 6 days and I believe it.
Shaun June 03 2 Do you also believe that flowering plants preceded animals? Quincunx June 03 0.
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ezQjNJUSraY. Transcript at starrandmichael.infothe-gay-debate-the-bible-and- hmosexuality. I was saddened by that reaction and started thinking: What would happen if we read the Bible and, instead of highlighting certain passages, we.
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